Fosterite related discussion

[celticdragonfly]

Okay, so you can tell that things have quieted down here at the Gallagher household in that I now actually have time to post. Wow. Perhaps if I'm lucky I can finally write out that thoughtful reasoned response to another post I was recently linked to and have been wanting to write on.

Anyway, patgund popped onto IM and had an interesting discussion with me about some stuff relating to my earlier post on the Fosterites.

patgund: You know, the more I reread that NY Times article, (interesting from a theological viewpoint, damm scary otherwise), I'm wondering if Radiant is part of, (or an offshoot of) the whole "Prosperity Ministry" movement.

ME: never heard of it

patgund: It's a movement in some branches of Christianity, (particularly in the more evangelical / fundamentalist types). Basically the teaching is that God and Jesus will make true believers happy and prosperous. The more prosperous the believer is, the more they're considered to be "in right with God".

ME: hmmm. Rather different from what I grew up with - which I think had underlying assumptions that someone really prosperous probably WASN'T right with God, was probably doing shady business practices and going for all they could get, not taking in the needs of others, "too worldly"

patgund: Prosperity Ministry churches tend to like to push tithing, saying that if they tithe "Gods Portion" to the church, God will reward them with even greater wealth and prosperity. To quote from the article: "assuring his congregants that if they give 10 percent of their income to the church, God will make sure that the remaining 90 percent will go further than the full 100 percent ever would have"
patgund: Which almost sounds line from line what Prosperity teaches

ME: yep

patgund: One thing that Prosperity also does is major investment in the church and it's infrastructure, as a way of example. Since many in this movement do little to no charity work, that's quite a bit of money.

ME: whoa
ME: this explains how these megachurches end up with the big buildings, then

patgund: (the reason, BTW, for the lack of charity work, is simple. If someone is poor, it means that they're not right with, or have rejected a relationship with God. Charity is limited to evangelical & missionary outreach, intended to "get people right with God".

ME: oh dear
ME: that is disturbing

patgund: Yep! If your only charity outlay is some bibles or such, you have a lot of capitol to invest. All of which is tax-free as well.
patgund: I know.

ME: and you can presume that it's more an investment than charity work - after all, once you get them right with God, you'll expect them to tithe

patgund: Exactly. An investment in the future. After all, if they get right with God and start to become prosperous, then they'll remember where they got that bible and are more likely to become members. And if they don't become prosperous, it means they're still cut off from God and are not worth socializing with

ME: Man, that's really different from the type of church attitudes I was brought up with. Of course, I was brought up in relatively small churches, in a very different type of denomination.
ME: I think my feelings of unease about megachurches have just gotten significantly reinforced.

patgund: (nods) I find them questionable at best. [Another friend] has a lot stronger words for them - she has no liking or regard for them in the least
patgund: Megachurches and "Prosperity Ministries" are part of what's been mockingly called "churchianity", which places the church or faith group above the religious message, diluting it down accordingly

ME: I'm all for the church being a community locus, and in fact I think developing a good community should be part of a church's function - it certainly was so historically. But what the megachurches are doing feels different and disturbing.
ME: so, can I repost this?

patgund: Part of it is that they treat the church as a business. The whole point of the megachurch is to get as many paying "customers" in as possible. Once you get people in the door, you can sell them the product in question. And all the additional pluses attract more customers
patgund: Sure
patgund: http://www.christianissues.com/insight.html
patgund: and http://www.indefenceofthegospel.com/html/prosperity_doctrine.html

I read the links he gave, and found it interesting.

Comments

[selenite.livejournal.com]

That reminds me of what I've read of the early Calvinists--worldly prosperity was a sign of divine favor, so concentrating on business and finances was encouraged.

[joyeuse13.livejournal.com]

I honestly didn't have a problem with a lot of the things Radiant is actually doing--the small focus groups, childcare, activities--like you say, the community stuff. But it's not religion. Of course, I don't really WANT religion, so that's fine. But the fact that they're pretending it is is kinda icky. Sort of anti-intellectual, talking down to the masses, kind of thing. "Don't think about it too hard and we'll keep you happy." Bread and circumlocution.

[celticdragonfly.livejournal.com]

I think if they were doing it as a group community center with all those things, without the religion, it would be far less creepy. "Believe what we tell you, associate where we tell you to, we'll keep you happy." Yeah, icky.