A generation of stolen children
Aug. 1st, 2005 10:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
celticdragonflyI saw a link today to this: http://buggydoo.blogspot.com/2005/07/i-am-very-sad-today.html
which really struck home with me. I followed her link to this:
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/news/rfk.pdf
Go read it. Really, read the whole thing.
It just makes me so sick and so sad. I have three children who fall into what they're describing as the "Thimerosal Generation". I've kept two of them safe. I wish I'd known more before the first one was born.
which really struck home with me. I followed her link to this:
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/news/rfk.pdf
Go read it. Really, read the whole thing.
It just makes me so sick and so sad. I have three children who fall into what they're describing as the "Thimerosal Generation". I've kept two of them safe. I wish I'd known more before the first one was born.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 04:06 am (UTC)Nobody knows what causes autism. There's been an upsurge, but there could be lots of reasons for it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 04:26 am (UTC)And I HATE that people try to insist "nope, it's utterly absolutely NOT the cause" when they can't point to anything else that is the cause.
And I am as passionate about this as you are on many of your firmly-held opinions.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 05:02 am (UTC)Believe you me, I will never, EVER attempt to do that again.
Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-02 07:28 am (UTC)On the other hand, aspirin taken after fever or adult infection with the Measles only causes brain damage/death or testicular scarring in a tiny handful of cases. What makes some people more susceptible than other isn't known.
So, actually, ataniell is right: You couldn't possibly have known whether or not your kids would have succumbed. Even if the worst-case percentage of the Rolling Stone author is accurate, we're talking one-in-a-thousand shot. But you're right not to take the risk, even so.
N.B. Aside: This is one of the reasons I'm with
N.B.B. Speaking of which, how is Brendan these days?
Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-02 02:05 pm (UTC)But you don't have all the data on the issue. Yes, many people may get exposed to the toxin and get by fine. It's a combination of a predisposition for trouble and the toxin.
But the family risk factors that show you're likely to have the predisposition are KNOWN. I've found them in my studies after Brendan. It's all about the family medical history. And those telltale markers of family predisposition are ALL OVER my family, both sides. There's a couple of them that turned up after Brendan was born, but there were LOTS of them even before that.
If those doctors were expected to ask the right questions, if they'd ADMIT that medicine is not one size fits all, if they had just asked the questions about the family medical history, we would have known that Brendan was at high risk of some form of damage from those shots. We COULD have known, at least that there was a high risk. (And no, the worst-case percentage these days is 1 in 150 - of autism. There are other bad reactions, too, I don't know what the total odds of a bad reaction are.)
(I will leave aside for now the idiocy of giving all newborn infants heptatis shots indiscriminately. The year Brendan was born there were more REPORTED bad reactions to that shot (and it is hard to get a case reported) than there were new cases of that form of hepatitis in the country)
I know about the importance of the family history now, which is why I'm so careful about the others.
Brendan will be here tomorrow for a two week visit. Right now he's living with my ex and visiting here - he had behaviors during what we think was a diet lapse that were really dangerous to Maggie, so we figured this would be best for now. His last semester at school sucked, but now he is finally getting a dedicated aide, so hopefully next year will improve. Maggie is very eagerly looking forward to seeing him.
Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-02 03:53 pm (UTC)Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-03 12:27 am (UTC)Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-03 03:21 am (UTC)Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-03 04:07 am (UTC)One thing: I have a bit of a prejudice against doctors ("med-sammys") and so may seem to be bending over backward to give them the benefit of the doubt. My apologies if this at all rubs you the wrong way (here or in other conversations), it's pretty much unavoidable.
I should also thank you: Since it was largely due to your posting that I made such a thoroughgoing investigation of vaccines and autism/immune disorders. I was able to devise an intelligent risk-aware vaccine protocol thanks to that research. I'm truly grateful.
Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-03 04:18 am (UTC)And you got a doctor to go along with it? Go you! I envy you.
Re: Epidemiology is a Tricky Business
Date: 2005-08-03 04:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 05:42 am (UTC)(((((((((
DV
I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-02 02:06 pm (UTC)I'm not asking to shove you around in your comfort zone. I'm asking because it's an interesting question to me and I don't know the answer. If the question is offensive, feel free not to answer it and I won't bring it up again.
Data can't help but accumulate on the question. If the rise of mercury-bearing vaccines in various countries tracks with the rise of their local autism/autism diagnosis rates, that's data. But if the removal of mercury again from vaccines tracks with a _decrease_ in autism cases as a whole new crop of two-year-olds comes through, that's hugely important and compelling data.
Re: I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-02 02:44 pm (UTC)1. A vaccine is a whack to the immune system, and can put a grown-up (such as me) on his butt for a day. At what age can a child handle that kind of impact w/o lasting damage? What's the range of variation?
2. Even if a kid can handle one vaccine fine, a whole bunch will have a bigger impact on the system. The current recommended schedule is 24 vaccinations in 18 months (including some triple shots). Is this above or below the threshold a kid can tolerate? How much variation is there in the threshold? There's research on the safety of individual vaccines but I've never seen anything on total number, just lots of belief that more is better.
3. How much difference does it make if the vaccinations are spaced out in time versus all at once? One shot per month over six months is probably a lot easier to handle than getting an MMR and DTP in the same office visit. I've never seen any research on the best rate for giving vaccinations.
It's also hard to discuss this with a doctor because of how the regulation and malpractice system are set up. You can sue a doctor into oblivion because he skipped a shot and your kid got sick, but if giving the shot hurts the kid it's the federal government's problem.
I remember getting very annoyed with a pediatrician who was claiming that all improvement in the rate of childhood diseases is due to vaccination. I think the illiterate men who laid sewer pipes saved more kids from disease than any doctor.
Re: I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-03 04:13 am (UTC)I agree with you about the sewer pipes in general, but he's spot on with polio and smallpox. Peg Kerr (local author, your kids will probably go ape for her stuff when they get elementary-school-age) has a wonderful story Small Steps about her recovery from childhood polio.
It's one of those cases where, yes, I'm risking my daughter a bit for the common good, because the common good (herd immunity to polio) is so compelling and the cost/benefit to her as well, despite our family history, is sound.
YMMV, of course.
Re: I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-03 04:26 am (UTC)Re: I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-03 12:43 am (UTC)(On the "more data is good" front, one of the things I really liked about this article was the bit about the study of the Amish. Because I've been saying for years that if a) the medical types are right that vaccines are NOT the cause, and b) medical types are bewailing the HUGE numbers of kids who, oh horrors, are not getting vaccinated, then WHERE are the studies gloatingly showing the same rate of autism among nonvaccinated kids?)
I think the combination of many vaccines and mercury in the vaccines is definitely a problem. How much of it is from which cause, well, I don't know. Mercury poisoning and autism symptoms are so similar, that gives me reason to feel at least a lot of the problem is the thimerosal (and possibly other metal preservatives). But anytime you do something that is an unusual stimulus of the immune system, you risk setting it off wrong.
(One thing you may not have heard about - there are two parts to the immune system, normally they work together. Vaccines only stimulate one part, and leave the other out. The other is what helps fight cancers. There is speculation that this may be involved in the rise of childhood cancers. That subject I do not have enough data on to do anything more than idly speculate.)
So vaccines without mercury - given my kids' family history, I would approach them with caution, question which were needed, and make sure to give the ones I felt necessary separately, spaced out in time, making sure the child was always in full health before giving one, and only after the child had reached a certain level of development.
Say, about three years. I would actually like to look into giving Maggie certain vaccinations, now that she's past what I think is the most dangerous developmental period, IF I could give the ones I have read up on as being the most necessary and least dangerous, spaced out individually, with no mercury. I brought this up with our family doctor last month. I am out of luck. He is unwilling to do anything other than the standard official schedule (which, given that she's THREE YEARS OLD is impossible anyway), due to liability concerns. So I'm stuck. All or nothing. I am willing to judge the risks carefully and make a reasonable compromise - they are not willing to let me do so.
Re: I've wondered...
Date: 2005-08-03 03:05 pm (UTC)Or the third choice, fire your doctor and find another one. Don't let yourself, as Miles would say, fall in love with grave-narrow options. Finding another doctor could be hard, embarrassing, or time-consuming, but they exist.
Immunity curve
Date: 2005-08-02 03:39 pm (UTC)Oh, and yes, you can get vaccines as "individuals" instead of combined. I know: I got just the mumps vaccine when it became available, because I had never had mumps. They were giving it to children as part of a trivalent vaccine with measles/measles. Interestingly, they had to separate out measles and give it again as a booster because too many college students were getting measles. Celticdragonfly had to get it again as a teenager because they gave it before age 1, and later studies showed such vaccines would not give lasting immunity.
Re: Immunity curve
Date: 2005-08-03 12:45 am (UTC)Re: Immunity curve
Date: 2005-08-03 04:20 am (UTC)Your local library reference department should be willing to provide this service: "Please look up and print out for me all doctors within X driving distance from Y (Y=your home addy*)" - ask them to place it w/your "holds". Then, if your mom (or another local relative/friend) is feeling incredibly generous for time she (or they) could cold-call the doctors to determine whether they'd be willing to handle an individualized immunization schedule. That's how we ended up with our pediatrician: "Not an option. Okay. You don't get our business. Next."
*I don't know how service-oriented your local librarians are: One bit of manipulation that is often effective on our breed is to rave about what a Godsend librarians are in this age of information overload and much you lurv your local library. :-)
Re: Immunity curve
Date: 2005-08-03 01:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 04:06 pm (UTC)The fact that Katie has ADD and a learning "difference" (not quite a disability) has had me blaming myself, worrying about every soda or other "not healthy" thing I consumed while pregnant with her. They might have happened anyway, though. In fact, I seriously believe her father had that same learning difference, and that his life would have been far happier if it had been diagnosed and treated properly. (If her father were alive, I know that he wouldn't waste a heartbeat considering whether anything he ever did might have had any negative affect on her (including using cocaine and marijuana).)
I'm rambling - sorry.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-08-02 06:47 pm (UTC)However when the article mentioned that Autism is on the upswing among countries the USA has exported thimerosol-containing vaccinations to, my skepticism started fading. I think this is the first article I read that mentioned THAT important fact, instead of just wild speculation. Thank you very much for bringing this to attention.